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Penny and Horrible as a couple
July 20, 2008
3:45 am
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Does anyone else not think it would work? It was sweet and all, but they're on entirely different wavelengths about the world and society–Dr. Horrible being an evil genius. Dr. Horrible doesn't seem to understand Penny at all, espcially when he thinks world domination would cheer her up.

(Sub-topic: Who else loves overthinking media?)

July 20, 2008
4:04 am
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vfdj42 said:

Does anyone else not think it would work? It was sweet and all, but they're on entirely different wavelengths about the world and society–Dr. Horrible being an evil genius. Dr. Horrible doesn't seem to understand Penny at all, espcially when he thinks world domination would cheer her up.

(Sub-topic: Who else loves overthinking media?)


It might have better chances if he were into necrophilia.

All joking aside I think if they'd have had a chance it could have worked big time.

She could have grown to love him and see how his way could be used for some good as well.

July 20, 2008
4:25 am
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The only way it can work is if one of them changes.

Curiously, they both see the world in much the same way: they look around them and see a system that is failing and so many things that need changing. They just disagree on how to affect that change. 🙂 (Penny believes in working within the system, and improving the system, where Dr.H believes the system is too flawed to repair, and sees replacing it with a benevolent dictatorship as the only viable option.)

So one of them would have to change: either Dr.H reforms and gives up his life of crime to work within the system, or Penny snaps and decides to step outside the system for the greater good.

Then again, how much of a relationship can you build on liking someone\'s hair. 🙂

July 20, 2008
8:30 am
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I think they both would have to change.

Penny saw only good in people, and Billy only bad.

I think with some time they could have change, with life prove them wrong, and meet halfway.

But with much more time than the duration of this webserie!

I don't speak english very well, please forgive me.
July 22, 2008
7:14 am
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What should happen is to have Dr. Horrible/Billy figure out a way to bring Penny back to the Land of the Living, even if it’s where he turns back time, and she has no memory of what happened in the mini-series, then Billy’s given a second chance to woo her affections at the laundromat. Only Billy and Captain Hammer would be able to remember everything in the mini-series, and Captain Hammer can be freaked out that she’s back from the dead and stays away from her, since the incident in which she died also introduced him to pain, and he’s probably not anxious about experiencing that again. Maybe something involving the effects of the death ray and that they were the closest ones in the shockwave could be a factor. The idea of Penny and Billy being a couple has potential; just hope Joss gives them a chance to flesh out the idea more.

July 22, 2008
7:50 am
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Talking with my brother about this, he suggested that I may have been wrong about Penny.

He agrees that Penny sees the world very much as Dr. Horrible sees it; terribly flawed. But where he sees a system so flawed it needs to be scrapped, she sees fixing the whole system as a task beyond her means.
She is trying to change the world one life at a time, because changing one life is something she can do and changing the world isn\'t.
My brother feels (and I see his point), that Penny might well be receptive to Dr. Horrible\'s vision. After all, Dr. Horrible is offering her (or would be) the place at his right hand (and all the power that goes with that) as he tries to make the world a better place.

Maybe she wouldn\'t mind breaking a few eggs if it meant making breakfast for the entire world.

July 22, 2008
8:46 am
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Penny wanted to change the world, be someone's hope. If Dr Horrible had gotten together with her, she probably would have brought out his softer side. But I don't see her being ok with with the whole life of crime thing. He would have had to change his ways to keep her. And he seems to be a bit too misanthropic for that. The relationship probably would have just been one more stormy sail for her and another disappointment for him. 

But I still wanted those 2 crazy kids to get together!

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August 3, 2008
9:46 am
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Danrob96
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I think they would be interesting as a couple.The way the series ended with him feeling remorse.....he gained the world and lost what he wanted most, Penny. I think that there could be a great secound series, something to do with him altering the past to avoid her death and it changing what hes after. Either way it was a great job and I look forward to more projects like this in the future, God knows I'm waiting for more The guild. 

August 3, 2008
11:54 am
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Beguine
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I think it would be one thing if Penny's optimistic view of life came from lack of exposure and true naivite.  However, from what she says life has been pretty lousy for her often enough. Her perspective, methods, and goals are despite or because of her exposure to painful realities; they are the response of a strong (but not bold) person to the world, not the innocence of someone who doesn't know better.  Therefore, I think she is unlikely to embrace Horrible's philosophy.  She has already seen the same problems he's seen, and chosen a path of compassion and caring for the individual victims of society's excesses.  If she were the type to decide that a life of crime and a drive to amass power to protect oneself from the nastiness of the world (with the vague idea that one day one would amass enough power to also protect others) despite a high short-term cost to others were the solution, I think she would have done so herself.  After all, think of how well she could fund the homeless shelters after knocking over a few gas stations, or after a little light embezzlement (given her nonconfrontational personality)?

I think of the two of them Billy's outlook was far less set than hers when they met.  Before her death, he had more likelihood to change signficantly than her, and as we see in the closing song of Act I he seems inclined to hesitate and consider going over to her side but to ultimately choose the path of power first, people after.  From what we saw of the close of the musical, the shock of her death seems to at least for the moment have pushed him even farther down a path Penny would have deemed unacceptable, rather than caused him to reconsider.  I think now it's even less likely for him to be able to make it work with a girl like Penny, though that's not going to stop him being atrtacted to quiet, sweet-seeming mildly geeky girls.

September 21, 2008
7:41 pm
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legendarylugi
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Lo9 said:

I think they both would have to change.

Penny saw only good in people, and Billy only bad.

I think with some time they could have change, with life prove them wrong, and meet halfway.

But with much more time than the duration of this webserie!


I don't agree. Billy obviously saw the good in people, that's why he fell in love with Penny in the first place...because she was the compassionate one who wanted to change the world for the better using hope instead of guns.

He saw the good in people, he was just overwhelmed by the bad he saw.

September 22, 2008
8:29 am
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Laura281
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I think Penny and Billy would make a good match.

Billy does see and acknowledge the good in the world, and it almost seems like he wants to embody it through his evil. He wants to improve and sculpt society into one of change, under his command. Of course, he also wants world domination for selfish reasons, such as money, fame, power and Penny's affection, but I believe that the greater good is the underlying determination for his plans of being in the ELE. He said, “The world is a mess, and I just… need to rule it.” He wants to fix the filth and lies of the world…. “Cut off the head”, if you will, of the major problem. Deep down, he is a good person. He is actually frighteningly similar to Penny and shares her goal of a better life for everyone… He just goes about it in an unorthodox fashion.

To people who believe Billy is/will be too far gone, I don't think Billy would ever turn his back on his inner innocence and care for everything. It may be smothered by his grief, sorrow and wicked façade, but there's no denying its presence, no matter how small. In the final moments, he says he doesn't feel anything, that's he's not bothered by the evil that he's doing and implementing, however, you can see the true emotion in his eyes. The loss of Penny and her goodness is eating him up inside, making him incredibly regretful and guilty. I also noticed that even the crimes he's committing after the death are robbery and such, just like he was doing before. He's not killing or harming anyone… He's still somewhat the same person, just sadder and numbed by mourning.

If Penny was to return, I think that Billy would run to her, reforming of his villainous ways (Or at least some of them. Hey, you can't teach an old dog new tricks.), already knowing his mistake of not pursuing her before and feeling his intense desire of leading a normal, happy life. (I doubt she would turn to evil or stand by while Billy took over, even if it meant making a better world. That's just not who she is… A quiet non-confrontational person.) Or he would perhaps need a bit of persuasion on switching his cynical viewpoint, but overall he would succumb to his true nature. I also think that Penny would see through the mask of immorality and see the Billy she knew and loved. After all, it's one of her talents to recognize the inner good in everyone. Together, I can see them changing the world, albeit a little more subtly and peacefully.

And as for the sub-topic... Yes. Yes I do. 

  

September 22, 2008
11:06 pm
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Their beliefs were the same: everyone working together.

Their methods were different: forcing people to do what was necessary, hoping people would work together.

One affects change, unfortunately against one's will. The other relies on voluteering, unfortunately often leaving things status quo regardless of hope. (The people, who would volunteer, would volunteer. The people, who wouldn't, wouldn't. Nothing's changed.)

So, do we have one person decide what people are going to do to help each other without any say from others, or do we hope that Mankind will break out of its rut and do something worthwhile for a change?

The two concepts are mutually exclusive. You can't force someone to volunteer.

While their goals are so close, that division is deep. It is unlikely that someone hoping people will volunteer will try to force people to do what they don't want. It is unlikely that someone who doesn't believe in Humanity will hope for people to volunteer.

Would Billy ever jump to the other side? I doubt it. Would Penny jump to the other side? Not bloody likely.

What might work…

To sumarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. (My phrase: “If you think you know what's good for everyone, you probably don't.”) To summarize the summary: If Billy is capable of making himself the ruler over the world, then he should on no account be allowed to do the job.

Instead, let's say Billy puts Penny in a position of power. She doesn't want to rule people, so in a position of power, she'll be willing to serve people with a means to do it… (and I don't mean “serve” as in a cookbook *insert The Twilight Zone music here*).

That relationship might work… but the question is… how would Billy accomplish it? I can't figure out how he could put Penny in a position of power without going against her ideals so much that she wouldn't object. He could do it possibly through manipulation of things without Penny knowing it was him (in which case, he'd have to be close to her to plan things and filter information). It's still a dangerous tight-rope. If there is even one small misstep, she'll immediately get away from him for manipulating her to do something she would have never done on her own.

Props to the late Douglas Adams and The Restaurant at the End of the Universe for the “those people who must want to… yadda yadda yadda”.

The gamut determines the acceptible range of conditions. It's Genius' Awesome Sauce in an 8oz. glass bottle with a cork stopper.
September 23, 2008
4:35 am
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Laura281
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You have used both HHGTTG and The Twilight Zone in your argument, so therefore I have the utmost respect for you. However I still disagree on the relationship not working. I can see your point, but I don't think that Billy is as unwilling to sway from his wicked plan of world domination as he seems.

He just wants to be an achiever and change the world, make people listen. Is he frustrated? Yes. A cynic? Yes. Often times terribly misguided and delusional? God yes. Is he now on the side of unchanging and irrevocable evil? No. In fact, he has/had quite an active moral conscience (ex. Frowning on killing and harm to others, not wanting to fight in front of kids, let alone kill them when offered as an easy way to get into the ELE, not being able to pull the trigger on CH, trying to warn him of the crack in the death ray, feeling guilt for the death of Penny…etc.) And like I mentioned in my last post, Penny's death has not erased his goodness (In my opinion it actually heightens it, despite his criminal actions,). He's just trying to convince himself he doesn't feel anything anymore to hide his pain. 

Another one of the main reasons he's trying to take over the world is because he's had a tough life, he's never been a winner, never been happy. But with Penny he was happy, and usually when he was with her, he forgot about the ELE and his beloved life of crime completely. He really only gave it his thought and energy when she wasn't around, or with Hammer. (Even then, he used his plot as a twisted yet strangely well-intended gift for Penny, which is sweet in an unsettling way… Though it probably would have gone over as well as Van Gogh's attempt to give his ear as a present to his girlfriend.) If Penny had ever gotten together with Billy, I think he would have been greatly impacted by her presence. He wouldn't change completely, mind you… He would still be a “cut off the head”, “come on strong” kind of guy with some villainous quirks, but overall be happier, more caring and not as extreme in his views, making the relationship work.

January 12, 2009
1:03 pm
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I think that it could work even without them changing.  Think about it Billy is so in love with her that he would do anything for her to help her along the way.  Like beating up the people who control the power or something.

I am The Green Dragon I leave no trail behind. I go about my evil deeds without stressing my mind. No one has ever caught up to me as they say. Then again people fear me more and more each day.
February 5, 2009
11:19 am
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Even as I continued to be mesmerized by how much I simply loved the whole experience of the production, it dawned on me, as well, that Penney would be a poor choice as a long-term relationship for Billy.  I could half-heartedly rationalize their belief systems and futures as compatible so I could move on through the story; moreover, it's not as bad a flaw as it would have been had Penney survived the story, since, realistically, theirs is a relationship that works best in Dr. Horrible's (twisted?) mind, or as one cut tragically short.  But, without the possibility of a \"happily ever after,\" the necessary emotional investment for the audience isn't possible.

When Billy, who is regularly tongue-tied around Penney under the best of circumstances, is forced to divide his attention between a rare and unexpected encounter with her outside of the laundry realm, and his wonderflonium heist, Billy appears to let his tongue slip.  His \"recovery\" was either an expedient falsehood betraying his lack of compassion for the \"sheeple\" he derides so contemptuously later while Capt. Hammer is under the effect of the freeze ray, or a clarification of a true belief that \"the system\" is broken and can only be fixed by a \"complete overhaul\" (presumptively under his totalitarian rule).  

Despite the amount of time and effort Billy must have devoted to doing \"horrible\" things while attending evil engineering school and antagonizing Capt. Hammer into-- well, not \"hammering\" him, (since we all know what that would entail)-- but, at least, provoking some savage wedgies, he still seems to retain an arguably unrealistically soft heart until fully pushed over the edge by Capt. Hammer's use of Penney.  So, Dr. Horrible is quite a paradox to me.  (For that matter, so are the \"heroes\" of his world).  Despite years of \"evilification\" and committment to \"horribology,\" Billy won't endanger kids in a park, while the \"heroic\" Johnny Snow obviously would (granted, this is expressed almost as an afterthought); he's happy to sign autographed photos for the \"sheeple\" he purports to hold in such contempt, and, even after his qualms about killing finally evaporate in the heat of his anger against Capt. Hammer's use of Penney, he still ultimately hesitates to drop the hammer on him, even while in maximum rage-mode, \"death ray\" in hand.  I could almost simply accept \"Dr. Horrible\" as a super-educated version of the kind of kid everyone began to fear following Columbine, trading black for white (with a kind of retro, quasi-steampunk thing going on), and retaining his rage beyond high school, rather than moving on, due to the continuing existence of \"heroic\" bullies like Capt. Hammer.

Penney's clearly not the kind of girl who would be impressed by \"the keys to a shiny, new Australia,\" although it is, perhaps, a glimpse into Billy's mind warp that he believes that she would be.  To the extent that a Billy-Penney relationship could work, it is only if Dr. Horrible is, as I will allow is possible, still not irredeemably evil.  At the risk of stating something so obvious that someone may already have pointed it out somewhere, I think that his \"evil\" comes off much more like an expression of pain mixed with frustration, concealed behind a protective camouflage of menace.

February 5, 2009
9:22 pm
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Perhaps I'm just expressing my ignorance of the backstory here (not having seen the comics), but the impression I always had is that Johnny Snow was a villain rival of Dr. Horrible, not a hero nemesis.

February 6, 2009
8:07 am
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I think it would be AWESOME if they got together (of course, if she were reanimated :P), and she would be able to change him to use his powers for good and possibly help her with her cause.  But that's too cheesy, and way too damn unlikely.

Maybe she'll change if he gives her the keys to a shiny new Australia.  😀

"Even in the darkness, every color can be found"
February 6, 2009
4:45 pm
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Miral said:

Perhaps I'm just expressing my ignorance of the backstory here (not having seen the comics), but the impression I always had is that Johnny Snow was a villain rival of Dr. Horrible, not a hero nemesis.


I share the ignorance… I know only the DVD, and nothing else. 

But, allowing that I am about as far from an expert on pulp superheroes as one can be and still know anything, (I know the old, campy 1960's Batman TV show and the parodied supervillainy of The Venture Brothers), I thought that anyone who even claimed to be Dr. Horrible's \"nemesis\" would have to be, at least, on the opposite side of the law-and-order scale.  If Johnny Snow were constantly trying to defeat Dr. Horrible, wouldn't that give him the same \"crime-fighting credentials\" as Capt. Hammer?  Can a world populated with superheroes and super-villains tolerate the ambiguity of \"supers\" who are sometimes good and sometimes evil, sometimes stopping crimes and sometimes committing them?  I've always believed that places like Gotham City and Metropolis (not Fritz Lang's) forced the \"supers\" into morally unambiguous roles.  When you introduce moral ambiguity, don't you lose the ability to label one \"super\" a villain and another a hero?  I thought that that clear-cut morality was a defining characteristic of the genre... but, again, I don't claim to be more than an inductive novice.

February 10, 2009
12:00 am
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Ah, but don't forget that rivals are often on the same nominal side -- they're competing to see who will achieve their mutual goal first.  Also, from the DVD itself we're told that both \"death rays\" and \"ice beams\" are staples of Johnny Snow, and that really doesn't sound like the sort of equipment a hero should be packing.  And he shows a disregard for the kids in Dooley Park.  (Though some of that could be the general role-reversal that seems prevalent in the world of the blog -- the on-screen villains seem like much nicer people than the on-screen hero.  Though possibly that's not saying much.)

So I think Johnny Snow is more of a rival than a nemesis.  Certainly Dr. Horrible doesn't think of him as a nemesis.

March 18, 2009
11:30 am
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QuantumIguana
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Doctor Horrible made his choices. He couldn't have both Penny and a live of villainy. But at every opportunity, he chose villainy over Penny. He wasn't aware of making these choices, but he made them, for example, he could have called off his Wonderflonium heist to have a real talk with an obviously interested Penny.

Villains to have heated rivalries with other villains, and heroes do sometimes. I remember Spiderman and the Human Torch used to fight a lot.

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