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4:32 am July 21, 2008
| earthwulf
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| Capt.Hammer Groupie | posts 5 |
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I know this has been commented on muchly, but ⦠I still canāt se myself watching/reading anything else from Joss for a while. Iāve been a fan since the first Buffy, the movie one, and have followed him ever since.
Iām not sure why, but everyting he does, while smart, sharp and funny, is tinged with tragedy. I canāt help but wonder if heād slated Buzz Lightyear to actaully be blown up in an early draft of āToy Storyā. Iām fine with the occasional tragedic happening, as life isnāt always rosy. But to have everything have some sort of major blow out sorrowful episode – well, I donāt want to always be thinking āWho is going to die? Which character has he made me care about will kick the bucket?ā
Possible spoilers allusions, for those who havenāt see/read Jossā stuffā¦
Buffy, Angel, Firefly/Serenity & the Astonishing X-Men – which of these stories did NOT feature a major character sacrifice? Really, is it too much to ask to have a happy ending for once? I know, I know itās not his style and I should look past it to embrace his brilliance (and heāās good, Iām not denying that), but my fanboi days are waning. Even āDollhouseā appears to be a series based in tragedy of a sort – the main characher will sort of die in every episode – at least the personality thatās been imprinted on the Dolls will no longer be in existance.
So, fo the time being, I bid the Whedonverse Adieu. No oneās gonna miss me, and i wonāt let the door hit me on the way out. I may peek in every once in a while to see how things are, and I wish Joss & his followers all the best.
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4:37 am July 21, 2008
| Brad Bethke
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4:40 am July 21, 2008
| earthwulf
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| Capt.Hammer Groupie | posts 5 |
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Heh, I was waiting for one of those responses . I'm only level one, so you can have all my n00b gear.
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4:48 am July 21, 2008
| Brad Bethke
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Heh! Fair enough, and here's a non-snarky response…
Sorry to hear you're getting Jossed-out, but that is the great thing about entertainment… there's buttloads of it out there, and when the shine starts to fade from one form, there's always another. I hope you do indeed find other things that you enjoy, and maybe after a time you'll be ready to come back and check out whatever the latest JW project is. But either way, have fun doing it.
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7:45 am July 21, 2008
| eowyn
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Actually, I understand where you're coming from. It does get frusterating. However, I would suggest the following: take a break from Whedon stuff. Watch something a little happier. But after a year or so, rewatch some of his stuff and you might find it a bit more enjoyable.
Case in point: I'm a huge… huge.. huge Steven King fan, but there was this point where I was nearly ready to highlight in my library book every time a) Spiders were evil b) the state of Maine was mentioned c) someone performed an excretory function in their pants out of fear (you think I kid… but look next time, it's in every book). A I realized it was like hanging out with same friend every single day.
No matter who much you enjoy someone or something they have repetative quirks that get annoying. So: take a break. A long one. But don't let that wreck what is really a great writer/show for you. Just remember writers are human too, and even the best have repetative ticks.
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8:12 am July 21, 2008
| serenity1222
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| Capt.Hammer Groupie | posts 33 |
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I've been where your at as far as not being able to accept the tragedy with the comedy. I think Joss' curse, if he has one, is that he does both comedy and tragedy so incredibly well that he has a very real ability to make a viewer go from one complete end of that spectrum to the other and cause a huge emotional hang over that even real life can't often match.
Rather than walk away I have become willing to take the good with the bad and learn to appreciate why the tradgedy part of the story is needed. I'll watch the tradgedy the first time, and if I can stomach it well then I'll rewatch it, if I can not, I wont watch it. (example, I fast forward the sad part of Serenity and skip to the next scene).
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8:39 am July 21, 2008
| pieceofgosa
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| Capt.Hammer Groupie | posts 43 |
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As much as I agree with earthwulfsā right to feel the way they do, I feel sorry for them that they canāt continue to appreciate that what Joss does is blur edges and lines (you must know that). Good/evil, comedy/tragedy, strength/weakness. All these nuances and contrasts, so subtley done, are what lifts Joss above most other writers out there. Bill Watterson, creator of the Calvin & Hobbes strips once said:
āIf life is just a stage, then we are all running around ad-libbing, with absolutely no clue what the plot is. Maybe thatās why we donāt know whether itās a comedy or tragedy.ā
That seemed apropos for Jossā work. Anyway good luck to ya āwulf, hope to see back at some point.
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9:23 am July 21, 2008
| CozZaretta
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| Capt.Hammer Groupie | posts 6 |
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When I first clicked on this link I expected another "I can't believe Joss would kill off (insert character name here)! I'm never watching this again" rants that usually occur after a character death. I wasn't going to comment, but was going to giggle a little at the 'I'm going to hold my breath until I get what I want' tone that usually saturates said rant.
However, what I found was an articulate and well thought out decision. Our tastes evolve over time and yours appear to be doing so. The fandom will be less for the loss of someone willing to rationally explain their viewpoint and not just flying off the handle. I hope you find what your looking for in other fandoms, and perhaps you will someday find yourself looking for a little tragedy. We'll be here to welcome you back if you do.
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9:29 am July 21, 2008
| pieceofgosa
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| Capt.Hammer Groupie | posts 43 |
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CozZaretta said:
When I first clicked on this link I expected another āI canāt believe Joss would kill off (insert character name here)! Iām never watching this againā rants that usually occur after a character death. I wasnāt going to comment, but was going to giggle a little at the āIām going to hold my breath until I get what I wantā tone that usually saturates said rant.
However, what I found was an articulate and well thought out decision. Our tastes evolve over time and yours appear to be doing so. The fandom will be less for the loss of someone willing to rationally explain their viewpoint and not just flying off the handle. I hope you find what your looking for in other fandoms, and perhaps you will someday find yourself looking for a little tragedy. Weāll be here to welcome you back if you do.
Well said Sir.
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12:18 am July 22, 2008
| earthwulf
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| Capt.Hammer Groupie | posts 5 |
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Thanks for the kind words, y'all… and you're right. I should definately take a break. But I can't seem to, damnit. Ah don't know how ta quit Joss.
Well, in a purely, ya know, fan sort of way.
Really.
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3:02 am July 22, 2008
| pieceofgosa
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| Capt.Hammer Groupie | posts 43 |
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You can't escape 'wulf. Admit it life will be easier in the long run
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8:25 am July 24, 2008
| hera2511
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| Capt.Hammer Groupie | posts 10 |
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earthwulf said:
I’m not sure why, but everyting he does, while smart, sharp and funny, is tinged with tragedy. I can’t help but wonder if he’d slated Buzz Lightyear to actaully be blown up in an early draft of "Toy Story". I’m fine with the occasional tragedic happening, as life isn’t always rosy. But to have everything have some sort of major blow out sorrowful episode – well, I don’t want to always be thinking "Who is going to die? Which character has he made me care about will kick the bucket?"
I empathise — some times I'm not strong enough. You know those days where the zeitqeist of the planet is a little too dark all on it's own without any help from Mr. Whedon (although the funny is what delights me over and over…and over).
I'm still stalled in S6 of Buffy because of the Tara's truncated arc…well you know. And I love the show!
I can always pick it up at some future point. Give me something to look forward to: unwatched Whedon.
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2:18 am July 25, 2008
| SanJuran
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I don't know if I'm done watching Joss' stuff, but the next time there's a call to action – "it's up to you folks now, get the word out!" – I'm hanging back. Get the word out so he can make more of us like Penny before he blasts chunks of her into the wall? Get the word out so he can kill Book and Wash in front of more people? Get the word out, in other words, so he can pointedly inflict big damn downers on an even larger audience? Not with help from me.
I'll hang back. I suppose eventually I'll probably wind up watching it, whatever it is. And if I know people who I think will like it, I'll recommend it to them. But I'm not doing the blind advance recommendation just-because-it's-Joss thing any more. I need to see what I'm recommending before I recommend it. However little this means, there'll be no more help with the opening-weekend push from me.
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2:50 am July 25, 2008
| TheGamut
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| Member of the ELE | posts 189 |
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SanJuran said:
I don't know if I'm done watching Joss' stuff, but the next time there's a call to action – "it's up to you folks now, get the word out!" – I'm hanging back. Get the word out so he can make more of us like Penny before he blasts chunks of her into the wall? Get the word out so he can kill Book and Wash in front of more people? Get the word out, in other words, so he can pointedly inflict big damn downers on an even larger audience? Not with help from me.
Heck. That's the reason to get the word out.
As I keep saying: How are you going to really feel for the likeable characters if you know they're going to always be okay like in the average show? There's no risk to them or your emotional attachment to them. No risk; no gain.
Every time you see someone get seriously hurt, you should feel "OMG ARE THEY GOING TO LIVE????" instead of "big whoop… they'll make it". You get the former from their work.
Pimp it before you see it. If you feel you must, warn them that someone may or may not die, because their past work should be a warning to just such a risk as you should already know by now.
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The gamut determines the acceptible range of conditions. It's Genius' Awesome Sauce in an 8oz. glass bottle with a cork stopper.
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5:32 am July 25, 2008
| SanJuran
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Gamut, you sound like exactly the sort of person Joss wants in his audience. I'm not, though. To the extent that I know people who think like you do, I'll nominate his future stuff to them. And to the extent that _you_ know people like that, great, pimp away.
But most people I know really don't care for Joss' type of manipulation – let's make people care about this character so it'll hurt more when I kill them! – any more than I do. So no, I'm not gonna pimp that stuff.
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6:44 am July 25, 2008
| Bad Mare
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| Capt.Hammer Groupie | posts 7 |
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SanJuran said:
But most people I know really don't care for Joss' type of manipulation – let's make people care about this character so it'll hurt more when I kill them! – any more than I do. So no, I'm not gonna pimp that stuff.
I really hate to break this to you, then: That's pretty standard writing practice. Most writers work that way. It just happens that Joss is really really really good at it.
To a certain extent, storytelling is the art of manipulating the audience. If the audience isn't emotionally invested in the characters, the story means much less, and is pretty forgettable. And when a writer decides to kill off a character, they want that death to matter. In some cases, that's because they're killing off an unsympathetic character and want the audience to feel vindicated, or in most cases because they want the audience to mourn the character. A death should have an impact.
This wasn't a random or meaningless death. It a) furthered the plot, b) pushed ahead the emotional journey of the main character and c) was really, really sad. A) and B) are arguably more important than C).
That said, you have a perfect right to avoid what you want to avoid. Personally I will not go see very sad/intense movies in the theatre, where I can't get away from them (I will watch them on DVD because I can control the viewing experience). I have a whole list of books/movies in my head that I read/watched once and will never again because I found them too painfully sad. So although Joss' work actually hasn't reached my personal 'never watch again' list (although Serenity came close), it's fine if it's on yours. I'm not judging. If you don't want to recommend it to people because you don't think the people you know will appreciate it, that's fine too. (Personally I will recommend stuff that ends sadly with a warning. Particularly to my mum, who always wants to be warned about character deaths — although she loves Joss' work, too.) I'm just saying what he does isn't particularly unusual or underhanded — it's how well he does it.
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8:03 am August 18, 2008
| pieceofgosa
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| Capt.Hammer Groupie | posts 43 |
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^more or less what I've been going blue in the face(fingers?) trying to convey to people.
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3:04 pm August 18, 2008
| QuantumIguana
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| Capt.Hammer Groupie | posts 4 |
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There are three options: kill of characters the audience cares about, kill of characters the audience doesn't care about, and not to kill off anyone. You could do the latter, and not kill of anyone, but this quickly becomes a universe with no risks, and that's just plain dull. Killing off characters the audience doesn't care about, is a very common option, but it has little impact. The "nameless redshirt" who dies to show that a situation is dangerous goes unmourned – his or her death means nothing. If you are not going to have a world where no one is ever going to die, and not going to have a world where only disposable people die, the only thing left is to have a world where characters that the audience cares about just might die.
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