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Disappointed, But Hoping for Sequel with Happier Results

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5:46 am
July 20, 2008


Hope

Capt.Hammer Groupie

posts 11

I suppose I never saw this labeled as a tragedy or saw it as anything but a cute comedy with brilliant music and musical talent, and as such the end was not expected to take such a dark turn. While I am familiar with some of Joss' previous work, I thought that his lighterhearted approach in this online venue would have a different manner of twist to the end. I suppose I had hoped for the best.

I was profoundly disappointed and stunned with the end of this seemingly lighterhearted comedy/different take on super heroes. What I had lauded to my friends as brilliance, has become the same old tired real-life ending to most things: unnecessarily tragic. I am now warning friends to avoid the last episode if they even watch it at all.

Had there been ANY allusion that I could see to Penny's secret survival, hints at a future sequel with Penny in a starring role (since comic book characters often 'die' but come back later through whatever means), I suppose I could have been able to enjoy the ending and anticipated the miraculous return of Penny and more tension. Instead it played out like so many japanese animes with no one happy at the end and most of the good characters dead, and there's no real hope (that I've been able to find in browsing) for a reprisal with a happier twist ending. I admit I watched the credits, hoping that there'd be something, anything, with redemption. There was nothing. All the anticipation, excitement, and joy at watching something that was so refreshingly different, was not only ruined but has left me with a sour taste for future endeavors by the writers involved. Yet I still want to hope for something to be announced that will let me enjoy the ending by offering a sequel that will have Felicia Day featured as a starring actress (she was brilliant in this by the way).

As for foreshadowing, I've seen many in the forums speak of how they could see this coming. However, what I had thought, was that Penny was really like Billy. Her song about herself, spoke of even in the darkness every color may be found, and essentially singing about rain being necessary (something that some may perceive as negative). I could have seen her as being either another potential lfor ELE candidacy like Billy (pursuing the Hammer to pull a Samson and Delilah type thing if the 'Hammer is his penis') or someone there to guide Billy to the 'necessary evil' that he was bent toward pursuing.

Should there be an announcement about a sequel involving Penny, I would be ecstatic. A friend of mine said that in the Marvel universe, "you've not lived until you've died in that Universe". I know this is wordy, but I fell in love with Dr. Horrible's quirkiness and that tension between Billy and Penny, and the ending dashed everything to pieces. Sure, Captain Hammer is gibbering in the corner, but a happier ending would have been so appreciated as a breath of fresh air.

Anyway, if you read this Joss, you have brilliant talent and the music was superb. Please consider a sequel with the return of Penny in some adorably quirky fashion? Death doesn't have to be the end in comic books. Hopefully…and I hope…that it isn't the end here.

Thanks for reading.

Sincerely,

Hope

8:05 am
July 20, 2008


sloppy

Capt.Hammer Groupie

posts 12

Just watched it again, even though last night I swore I wouldn't see it again.

The thing that struck me at the very end, is how while Dr. Horrible is singing as he sits down in the meeting, the final word is sung by Billy dressed casually in front of his computer.

Now it's got me wondering if Billy wasn't just imagining the whole thing, even from part 1. Those casual clothes are throwing me.

11:07 am
July 20, 2008


Sutures

Seattle, WA

New Member

posts 2

I agree with Hope (and what an apropos name). I made the mistake of letting my kids watch it with me without pre-watching, because I was so excited to see Part 3. Needless to say, they were confused and dismayed. I was upset, too, but mostly because I should have known better. I had forgotten that Joss likes to mess with expectations. But this was way too much like Tara and Dark Willow, and felt like "been there, done that, bought the t-shirt." I too hope for a way for Billy to redeem himself, and bring Penny back, and wipe the smarm off Captain Hammer's face.


And I *loved* Bad Horse.

4:18 pm
July 20, 2008


PsychoDan

Capt.Hammer Groupie

posts 4

I loved Bad Horse too, though I was a little disappointed when he finally appeared and didn't have a costume.

5:04 pm
July 20, 2008


TheGamut

Oxford, Mississippi

Member of the ELE

posts 189

To bring back Penny would be an atrocity to the meaning of her Death. Do you really think Mutant Enemy's going to dumb-down her Death?


The sooner we realize that this should not be undone; the sooner they'll believe we're ready for a sequel.

The gamut determines the acceptible range of conditions. It's Genius' Awesome Sauce in an 8oz. glass bottle with a cork stopper.

7:36 pm
July 20, 2008


Hope

Capt.Hammer Groupie

posts 11

I have to disagree, TheGamut. It would hardly be an atrocity to bring a character back from the dead in this situation. This is a musical comic book, essentially. This is not real life. This is "Bop" "Bam" "Zap"…not playing "Taps" at a funeral. For any who have read comic books, often characters are brought back from tragic deaths, their death having provided whatever necessary plot device it was for, and deemed no longer necessary. Bringing the character back often provides a new plot device and interesting twists in and of itself.

If I wanted to watch something with death that can't be undone, I'd watch the news. There's plenty of death in the world. Not enough comedy and fun. Remember there are freeze rays that stop time in this little Jossiverse, there are characters that are super strong and powerful, and there are comic characters with silly powers like Moist. This wasn't presented as a dark or macabre comedy.

Anyway, I'm still hoping that in a universe with someone like Hourglass able to see that a kid in Iowa is going to be a president, that there is someone with a power to raise the dead or Dr. Horrible can pursue a resurrection ray. Anything is possible in that world, even if it isn't in real life. Here's hoping for a brighter sequel.

Sincerely,

Hope

12:35 am
July 21, 2008


sherlockia

Maryland

Capt.Hammer Groupie

posts 3

Hope said:

If I wanted to watch something with death that can’t be undone, I’d watch the news. There’s plenty of death in the world. Not enough comedy and fun. Remember there are freeze rays that stop time in this little Jossiverse, there are characters that are super strong and powerful, and there are comic characters with silly powers like Moist. This wasn’t presented as a dark or macabre comedy.

Hope


QFT. In a dark Real Life world we have more than our share of tragedy and unexpected loss. Parts I and II of Dr. Horrible took us out of that world and into one with smirks and winks and music and funny, quotable lines. Part III, while certainly following what we have come to expect from Joss in other, darker works, did not seem to fit the world we had been enjoying for a few brief days. I'm sure there are some who will think Joss so very clever to have "psyched" us, as Billy would say, but I, for one, feel manipulated.

2:02 am
July 21, 2008


patronise

Australia

Capt.Hammer Groupie

posts 7

I can see where you're coming from. The first two episodes had their pathos, but were mostly sheer delight. The end of act 3 stunned me and though I wish it hadn't happened – that's what makes it brilliant. You invest and you care about these characters – and you cared when you lost them too. See also, Half-Life 2.


While I surprised, I wouldn't say that the event was entirely without foreshadowing – and not just through Joss Whedon's reputation. The tone of the third act is entirely different from the previous episodes, setting us up for something big. That said, we are totaly lulled into thinking Dr Horrible's glorious emergence with the freeze ray and death ray is that big thing.

However, there is one other subtle bit of foreshadowing. When the van swerves out of control and nearly kills Penny, it is because Captain Hammer smashes Dr Horribles device. When Captain Hammer takes ahold of Dr Horrible's death ray the results are deadly. There's a pattern of Captain Hammer taking Dr Horrible's inventions and endangering Penny. Of course, this begs the question: who is more responsible.


Also, I agree wholeheartedly with Redfeathers – tragedy is a vital part of a hero's or villian's story.


5:23 am
July 21, 2008


HollyG3

CA

Capt.Hammer Groupie

posts 8

I also wondered if Billy was just living out a fantasy life online and none of this stuff actually happened. Great twist!

HollyG3

5:44 am
July 21, 2008


TheGamut

Oxford, Mississippi

Member of the ELE

posts 189

How many times has Mr. Whedon (the Joss one) said he prefers to give people what they need?


People don't really need another fairy tale. Those are a dime a dozen. They need someone who is Human dealing with Human issues, albeit in a fantasy setting. Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose.


What you may want is not necessarily what Mutant Enemy is willing to give to you. Just look at their history. Given the same look into their history, they take Death seriously.


To bring back Penny would apparently go against their beliefs. If that's what you want, that's not what they're going to give you. You'll never see a sequel to this as long as you want Penny back alive and well (unless you want the sequel to come crashing down when he wakes up and she's still dead).


Think about Mutant Enemy when you think about what you're going to get.

The gamut determines the acceptible range of conditions. It's Genius' Awesome Sauce in an 8oz. glass bottle with a cork stopper.

8:53 am
July 21, 2008


Hope

Capt.Hammer Groupie

posts 11

The probem is, TheGamut, that what the people "need" is being assumed to be tragedy. Why would people NEED tragedy with all the wars, death, murders, accidents that already happen on a daily basis in the world? That's like saying we need to be flagellating ourselves every day to make sure that we take everything seriously and feel constant guilt or sadness. What the people "need" is not necessarily more of the same that we always get in real life, nor is it necessarily perfect happy endings as in your case of needs, and that I will admit. I don't think it is exactly good to ever assume what others "need" if they do not know the person. For all Joss knows I may have just lost someone I love to death and this was the first thing I saw that cheered me up after the death of a loved one, only to have death pushed in my face in a fantasy world where it seemed no one really got seriously hurt even after cars were thrown at them and battle confrontations are slapstick humor.

Also, it's important to realize that I didn't come into this with "Mutant Enemy oh no it's going to end badly". A great friend of mine gave me the link and said "you have to watch this, it's pure genius" and I did. I didn't over analyze. And I LOVED IT. I truly loved it, the first and second episodes. It was and is pure genius. They brightened my day and were adorable and built exceptional excitement and anticipation. The music was beautiful and the comedy lighthearted even with the subjectmatter. Had it been labeled as Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog, a dark comedy, I might not have ever watched it depending on my mood, or at least I would have been warned that it was not apt to be a happy ending.

People change, things change, and happy endings CAN happen in real life too. They just don't do it that often. Going into everything assuming because it has happened before it has to happen again, isn't giving the artist a chance. It wouldn't have hurt to have a happier ending. What I need is not what others may need, and so forth. Joss is a genius, and the first and second episodes brightened my day. Even with all the foreshadowing, "unhappy endings" don't have to always end in shock and death.

All I'm ultimately saying is that I could enjoy the ending for what it is if I had some glimpse or foreshadowing or hint that this little Jossiverse was continuing and there was some hope of Penny's coming back and love maybe actually being realized, or something more upbeat. I need hope. Not just another miserable ending to greatness. We have enough of that in reality.

Sincerely,

Hope

9:06 am
July 21, 2008


CozZaretta

Capt.Hammer Groupie

posts 6

Penny may return in a sequel, but if she does it probably won't be all flowers and kittens. Remember Buffy. Joss brought her back, but it was very very painful.

Joss doesn't always give us what we want, or necessarily what we need. He gives us something to make us think, to make us react. You are here arguing your opinion with dozens of other people. If it had ended happily ever after all tied up in a neat bow you may not have given it a second thought. I wouldn't have. I would have just thought that was cute and moved on. Now I'm here talking to other people, watching it over and over to pick up clues and trying to peel away the layers.

10:05 am
July 21, 2008


pieceofgosa

Dundee

Capt.Hammer Groupie

posts 43

TheGamut says "Joss gives people what they need". I think it would be more accurate to say he gives people what he thinks they need. My film lecurers at uni are fond of saying that by 1970 Jean-Luc Goddard, "didn't like his audience very much". I think the same can be said of Joss (to a lesser extent) but like all things in his world the sentiment is filled with contradictions. He gives us what he knows we'll all like (acts 1&2), then hits us with what he thinks we need to see (act 3). IMO this is because as an artist & a person, Joss is seeking an answer to what it means to be human, to have a soul & how that soul is capable of great kindnesss or unspeakable evil. Even Toy Story explores those themes. I'll leave you with a quote, which won't soothe Hope (this clearly was not the ending for you & that's totally cool) but which I found quite appropriate for Joss' work:

“If life is just a stage, then we are all running around ad-libbing, with absolutely no clue what the plot is. Maybe that's why we don't know whether it's a comedy or tragedy.”

Bill watterson, creator Calvin & Hobbes.

10:55 am
July 21, 2008


Live_Bowie

New Member

posts 2

I turned a lot of people onto Dr. Horrible and told a lot of people to go to iTunes and put money into Joss's pocket as is the right thing to do— and the vast majority of those people have told me that they were disappointed and did not like Act III.

I have to agree with them.

Sure, it's not a perfect world in any universe and not every time does the boy find redemption, save his soul from darkness and get the girl of his dreams….  but it can be.


The buzz around the web has been AMAZING for Dr. Horrible. I've been thrilled to death that an 'independent' project could generate this kind of buzz, attention and, as Joss intended, money from people buying it off iTunes.  From a person in the independent production community it's been a thrill…. but ACT III was a buzz kill of the highest proportions.  


I have seen nothing but so-so responses to Act III and for the most part very poor responses. As a story teller, and the guy who probably put up all the money for it, Joss can tell whatever story he wants.  Hell, he could have ended it with Horrible killing babies in an orphanage if he wanted to… it's his freakin' story and he can tell it anyway he wants to and I'd defend that right to the death.   But it's just a sad decision and one that makes no sense for what he hoped to accomplish with this project. 


Kiss the DVD sales goodbye except from only the most dedicated of the fans of the Whedonverse, kiss the continued iTunes sales goodbye and all the people who didn't know who the hell Joss, Neil, Felecia or Nathan that came in the door to see what it was all about probably won't come back for the next thing and won't spend a penny to see it again. 


I respect Joss's right to do whatever the hell he wants as a story teller, I'm tired of everything coming out of hollywood being the cookie-cutter piece of shi!t same old thing, remake of same old thing or retelling of same old thing— and Joss has, for the most part, always stepped away from that temptation thankfully.


Dr. Horrible could have been what Act I was all the way through: A delightful, fun, happy, light experiment in storytelling that could have left a lot of newbies BEGGING for more from independent producers and Joss Whedon. Now, sadly, all he can hope for is that they don't tell all their friends about their disappointment and dislike.


It's sad. There is a place for the hard, sad, tragedy and sometimes there is the place for the light, funny, delightful, heart-gladdening comedic story. There's room for all of it but this time was not the place for the former. 

Oh well… that's my opinion on it— 

… I don't have time for a grudge-match with every poser in a parka

11:20 am
July 21, 2008


matilda

Sweden

Capt.Hammer Groupie

posts 9

sloppy said:

Just watched it again, even though last night I swore I wouldn’t see it again.


The thing that struck me at the very end, is how while Dr. Horrible is singing as he sits down in the meeting, the final word is sung by Billy dressed casually in front of his computer.


Now it’s got me wondering if Billy wasn’t just imagining the whole thing, even from part 1. Those casual clothes are throwing me.


When you say it, it can be true that he just imagining it happen. But it's wierd that he imagining it ending so sad, so after all, it could be real.

But the way I really wanted it to end was that this stupid Captain Hammer died or something and that Penny turned Dr. Horrible to just Billy and that they two lived happily ever after. But that's a kind of obvious way to end it, so I guess the end was ok anyway.

12:06 pm
July 21, 2008


belindamarie

New Member

posts 1

I am still leaving the ending open in my mind.  Having observed Billy a number of times over the past week, I believe that most of Act III could have been the fantasy product of his paranoid and negative fears (along the lines of 'be careful what you wish for').  He wants to be evil (but not too evil), and is well aware that his actions could have disastrous consequences, not necessarily the outcome he wanted. Maybe Act III was all in his mind…


And Hope, I am keeping my hope alive

x B

5:28 pm
July 21, 2008


Fake Library of Cong

Guest

What all of you are overlooking it seems, is the moralism inherent in the ending as it stands. What many of you are saying is that you wanted, essentially, to see evil prevail.

I mean, I am not gonna lie, I was sad to see Penny die, but I absolutely appreciated the message. Perhaps it was just because I hadn't seen a Joss-production before (save a few episodes of Buffy my sister was watching), but the fact that I wasn't expecting a sad ending made it SO much more effective. Like one of the other people above said, I rewatched it several times and analyzed motives, decisions to find who was at fault, where the fatal flaw was, the meaning of the final shot, etc. This turn kept Dr. Horrible from just being an online movie I watched and moved on.

Overall, however, my point is simple. The death of Penny was retributive to Billy for letting his evil/vengful side win. It was absolutely the right ending. It is there to drive home that evil is not a path to happiness. Would you really like a different or even opposite message?

~Fake Library of Congress  :-P

5:30 pm
July 21, 2008


Seb

Guest

well, sorry to be the black sheep here, but I thought that the ending to part III was brilliant.

yes, I said brilliant, as in good.

I should probably preface this with saying that as far as movies go I might be jaded, I don't have a full smile when the good guy wins, I don't like nicely packaged perfect happy endings. Maybe this is because it feels more real to me, thats what others keep mentioning, but I think that it's because it's not cliche, it's not what you expect, in dark movies, even ones that are SERIOUSLY trying to be evil and scary like i donno… the Friday the 13th movies or something, you KNOW that someone is going to get away, or the bad guy will eventually lose.

well, Hammer winning would be the Dr loosing, but so would getting what he wanted. That was the point I think.

Dr Horrible (NPH is a brilliantly acted god!) wants to change the world and take down the system, and doing that makes him evil, or at least Chaotic. The other side to his ambition however is impressing Penny and winning her over. even in his darkest times when he is singing about killing Hammer he has a whole verse dedicated to how he will make Penny happy.

If Horrible got what he wanted, that is Penny, and she "changed him" into billy as someone mentioned, then he no longer is changing the world for the better, not joining the league, he "loses". besides, the bad guy just being a misunderstood charecter that the right person can turn around is very cliche, and i've seen it too many times. I still would have enjoyed the show if that had happened, but this is better.

The thing is, when Penny dies, his whole world collapses. Someone before mentioned "be careful what you wish for" exactly! by Penny dying, he gets into the League, but his soul isn't in the work anymore, which is portrayed by his bored bank robbing. he doesn't care, because the penny personifies the good in the world that he wants to bring about through his evilness, as when he says he wants to change the world. When Penny dies, i don't know what quite happens, maybe he is crushed by his actions, maybe that spark that was worth changing the world for has gone, maybe without penny, what's the point? so he gets into the league, and continues being evil, but instead of the creative "good through chaos" as he preached before, he just robs a bank.

it's the downfall of the man, the end of ambition. he couldn't get one, without loosing the other. the league or penny. but the thing is when he looses one, the other is meaningless. without penny his actions have no purpose, without the league he feels he isn't good enough and has no confidence.

the last line of the movie when he sings "and i feel…. nothing" is perfect. he gets everything he wanted, membership in the league but it is meaningless now, he feels nothing, not even enough to "suit up!" and do a proper evil blog.


my 2 cents and a long post – GOOD ENDING.

5:36 pm
July 21, 2008


Seb

Guest

i have to respond to "fake library"


yes, i do want to see evil prevail. honeslty lol i love it when the bad guy wins.


the good guy winning? i've seen superman, i know how it's going to turn out. if you ant to suprize me, make the bad guy win, and i will watch that movie again and again.

i think ALOT of audiences feel that way these days, thats why there's the rise in "anti-heroes" Hellboy, Batman, the Hulk, i'm sure there are lots others but these are movies i've seen in the past month or so, these are all anti-heroes… mostly.

Hellboy and Batman are assholes. yes they are good, yes they help people but their still total assholes. have you read some of the batman comics? instead if picking the man up and taking him to jail Batman plants a bomb on your body and threatens to blow off some of your limbs if you don't co-operate. you're telling me that you couldn't just knock him out?

I think jerk heroes are so popular because their further away from the "good guy winning" cliche. yeah, their still good, and yeah, they still win, but at least their jerks about it.


do i want to see evil prevail? yes. for entertainments sake of course, i don't actually want murder and such roaming my streets.

5:42 pm
July 21, 2008


Fake Library of Cong

Guest

Along the lines of what was being said above, there is an important thought in the final song that I am suprised no one has singled out yet, specifically the first lines:

"Here lies everything, The world I wanted at my feet"

This clearly has a dual meaning: 1) the metaphoric.. all the power, etc layed out before him and 2) the literal .. penny's slumped body lies before him. The next line aside, his victory is very much incomplete. He lost. And as I said before, what you are all forgetting is that, though captain hammer was a douche, Dr. Horrible was the bad guy. He lost everything he wanted. Thus evil losing, fits most of the stanard defintion of traditional "Happy" endings. And that is what is truly the brilliant twist in the work…

but obviously we are entitled to our opinions… like I said though, its a morality play.



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